A Brief Introduction to Non Duality

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Goldcup7

possibility of beings that have the ability to communicate via thought rather than speech.

Most people conceptualize thought as verbal or language based. It is imagined as "the talking in our heads." Which is a pretty weird considering the "talking in our heads" or "thoughts" are not based on our hearing or seeing at all! Our eyes and ears are not used! The whole thing is imagined in the mind!

I'd add knowledge and understanding in my opinion is not language based. Language is used as a way to share it with others or to "conceptualize" it for ourselves, but I'd say it has no foundation in language. Our knowledge and understanding is there whether a language based thought or conceptual symbol based representation of it is there or not.

Since "thought" is generally a language based thing, I'd say I believe some beings can communicate telepathically their "knowledge" or "understanding directly without translating it into a word based thing. I think that is how we communicate in the astral world. Especially since I believe we wont have mouths there. Plus, that's how we can all communicate there no matter what language we spoke as bodies on earth.

Imagine getting to "heaven" and you are in an area no one speaks your language. I don't believe we use language or a word based communication out of the body.

[Starman]

Language in the afterlife is intuitive, it is not word based; this I have witnessed in out-of-body experiences. Information comes to us in many forms, words are only one way that communication takes place. Body language is a language without words, as is sign language.

Language means more than words, and yes, in my opinion thoughts are also a language. Psychologists call it “self-talk” or our internal dialogue. The cells in our physical body are communicating with each other sending signals that are not in words; words are just one form of language.

Dreams can also be a language which communicates something to us. Language is not merely words. The universe is communicating with us all the time without using words. Language are largely symbols which we translate and give meaning to.

When I lost my eyesight and was totally blind I learned Braille, little dots arranged in a certain way to form a language and when translated had meaning; similar to Morse Code. When most people think they often use their eyes, looking up to the left or right as they ponder something, and lots of people have complained about being in a noisy room, saying they could not hear themselves think. So in my opinion thought does involve our other senses.

[Goldcup7]

Originally Posted by Maisy

The all are all individuals. Individuals continue to be real and exist even if the totality is "one."

I politely and respectfully disagree. Certainly as far as Non Duality is concerned, there is not 'all' and truly there is not 'one'. There is only what is. There is not an individual 'me' or a 'body'. 'Body' cannot truly be defined. The human body is continually flowing and changing with the 'environment'. So 'body' is a vague definition.

Imo and in keeping with Non Duality, there are not many individuals. However, there is only reality. I wouldn't say that "everything is real" because that implies 'many things'. But truly there is only reality as it is.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Goldcup7

in keeping with Non Duality, there are not many individuals.

That reminds me of Solipsism. Metaphysical solipsists maintain that the self is the only existing reality and that all other realities, including the external world and other persons, are representations of that self, having no independent existence.

In other words, Solipsists believe only one person exists and all others are imagined or created by the mind of that one person. Of course that would mean when "I" die, this earth and everything on it would cease to exist as all of it was my creation. All others are a figment of my imagination.

Non-duality seems similar to me if defined as no individuals existing. If no individuals existed, we would not exist and I seem to exist. Though I suppose one could say, since we are free to make up any belief we want, we all exist but we are not individuals. We "all are one." But that was my point in an earlier post. The statement is not "all does not exist" it is " all is one." The "all" or the many is a part of the statement. All means everything, not one thing. All is one means all that exists is one thing. All or everything does not stop existing with a claim all of it is one thing. All of it is a part of the statement! The human body is one thing yet all the parts of it, the lungs, heart etc still exist.

If there was only one perspective, one point of perception and awareness, no individual points of awareness or perception, then there could be no such thing as discovering or not discovering non-duality as the one would simply be what was. There could not be a concept of duality or non duality as that is a perception of two possibilities or realities and not one. I think logically, at least two individuals would need to exist in order for duality and non-duality perception to exist. If only one individual existed, whatever state they were in would be all that existed.

Obviously a discussion of non-duality itself could not happen without individuals discussing it and agreeing or disagreeing etc. If there was only one, there could be no discussion or agreement or disagreement. What ever the one perceived and was aware of or believed would be the only reality or perspective that existed.

[J_A_S_G]

The dream cannot be said to be unreal because it appears, however the dream cannot be said to be real because it's destroyed by knowledge.

Perhaps a good way to illustrate this concept is with physics. Electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force seem to be very real and fundamental to us, however amp up the energy level and both of those fundamental forces are revealed to be illusory, replaced by a single force - the electroweak force.

Getting back to spirituality, the paradox of the One and many will not be resolved by mind, thought or word. Questions will never be answered. It's only when the answer is revealed that all the questions lose their relevance.

[Goldcup7]

Originally Posted by Maisy

That reminds me of Solipsism... If there was only one, there could be no discussion or agreement or disagreement.

Some good points there, Maisy. I'll try to clarify some of it. Non Duality is not Solipsism. There are no persons in Non Duality. It is not that there is only me, it is that there is only what is. What Is is not me or you, he or she or them. It just is.

Non Duality teaches that the separateness of people or persons is illusory. For instance, my identity as a Welsh male human is incorrect. I am not a human and there is no real place called Wales. These are manmade definitions, and we shouldn't give them the belief that we do. The human form has no defined limits. Similarly countries are only human definitions, not reality.

I perceive the human experience with its manmade words and labels and territories. At the heart of this human being, behind the mistaken identity, is What Is. It can also be called Consciousness, Awareness, Beingness, or God. It is the same One at the heart of all human experiences. The deeper nondual self realisation is that this heart of our being is not truly limited to anything. Truly there is no heart or centre. There is no inside or outside. These are inaccurate labels. There is only What Is.

It could be conceded that 'All are one' is a relative truth. But words are not accurate. So all statements are incorrect. The closest to a true word is silence. The perfect page of truth is an empty page. But sometimes we need words to point us to that which is inexpressible and unseen.

How are we having this discussion if there is only One? I agree with Rupert Spira's explanation that Infinite Consciousness localises itself to experience itself as many beings in a world. Effectively Consciousness is knowing itself by seeming to separate itself into many consciousnesses and looking at itself. But separation of Infinite Consciousness is impossible, so the multiplicity is illusory. The world shows us this in the branches of a tree - there are not truly many branches. There is only the tree.

As regards agreeing and disagreeing, this is inevitable in a world of opposites. Opposites and reflection (duality) are essential for the inexpressible to be expressed. However the reflection can never be the truth. The truth is just as it is, whether we agree or disagree.

A big lesson to learn from Non Duality is that all our labels are incorrect. Labels about ourselves, others and the world. There is only what is.

[Still_Waters]

EXCERPT QUOTE 2:

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

- non-dual seeker may see duality or multiplicity in life (because of names and forms ) but he/she instantly identifies the underlying intrinsic similarity / oneness and will orient toward oneness so that one in other manifestations (forms and names) also feel good beside the seeker.

Similar in many ways to a lucid dream where the dreamer can see duality or multiplicity in the self-created dream universe ... and can easily shift one's attention between the dream-object and the dreamer while still enjoying the play (lila) of consciousness.

Well said.

[Starman]

For me “illusion” means transitory, it does not mean it is not real. Reality in my opinion is a matter of perception. If a person sees angels that is real for them regardless whether other people can see those angels or not; if another person sees demons that is real for them. Yes, there is a collective reality; we find a collective reality among like-minded people.

But absolute reality, now that is another matter. When we speak of non-duality we are referring to absolute reality, a reality which exists outside of the transitory realm, outside of illusiveness and individual perception, yet permeating all other realities. A reality which is steadfast and permanent. Physical reality is real but it is also transitory, which makes it illusive.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Goldcup7

I'll try to clarify some of it.

I agree with pretty much everything you posted. I'm just wording some stuff different and might veer off a little bit.

I think an "enlightened person" does not forget their past or lose their memory. I would guess they just stop identifying with it as self and it stops being the basis of what they do and are and experience from moment to moment.

In non duality is there only the what is? I think it's kind of a complicated statement. We are human and a "human" to me is an awareness merged with a human body and it's mind. Liberation (or non duality experience and perception) to me is the realization and awareness "I" am not my body or it's conditioning or content and it's mind. That realization changes what I project as self and what I experience and perceive.

But then looking at our human world, human created reality exists. Like all the beliefs and concepts that give the illusion we are different and separate. Body and cultural differences for example. But this requires a belief we are our bodies and cultures. I could draw a line in the dirt with a stick and claim the land on my side is now Hanaland and the land on the other side is Zanaland. Then I gather a a whole lot of other humans and get them to agree to what I just made up. It becomes experiential reality to everyone who buys into it and quite real to everyone. Where am I? Well Hanaland of course is the reply. It is an experiential fact to people.

One could say Hanaland and Zanaland is an illusion and not the "what is" but then not only do most believe it is true, people make it a physical realty with each place having leaders, armys, signs, it's in books and maps, there is a flag for it, a national flower, and on and on. It becomes a "reality" all can experience. There may even be wars defending it's boundaries. It's people identify with being Hanaicans or Zanalandians or whatever. Over time they may develop their own languages and ways they dress. Develop their own laws and rules and beliefs and religions.

[Maisy]

Seems to me human created reality, which can be experienced, is a part of the what is. I think the "non dualistic what is" is basically what exists with or without human's being here. If all humans disappeared a lot of what we believe in would cease to exist. If no one was here to believe in that line in the dirt I drew and the different cultures and people on each side of it, it would no longer exist or be a reality or a part of the what is.

I think we are talking about us, whatever one believes we are, and our potential experience. Non dualistic living perception and being I think is a potential we have. In that state one is aware of things as they are and not as humans have made them. So our experience and perception changes but we may still arrive at a border and need a passport. At the human created border, we have to deal with human created reality whether or not we believe the reality of it exists anywhere outside the human mind.

Humans claim they can own land even though it is temporary in all cases. We all leave our bodies and this land at some point. But then our children are conditioned to believe and accept human created realities so it continues on.

The thing with human created reality or "illusionary" reality is it does exist. If I heard a noise and believed it was a ghost, that is now my experience and reality and the experience of all I can convince it is true. Other's who believed it would come to where the "ghost" was believed to be and be scared. The emotion of fear they would feel and experience is real even if the existence of the ghost was not. Belief creates experience and reality even if it is all made up and not based on anything real at all.

If one person believes they are Hanadian and another believes they are Zanadian that creates a separation. That separation is quite real as it is believed in. Imagine a war happens between these people. One can not be in the middle of that war and claim it is not the what is. But one can see it is wholly unnecessary as all "persons" are the same. We are awareness, not our bodies or our conditioning, or our thoughts and minds.

There are people who are non dualistic and love all and see oneness. If all were that way, peace and love between all would be the norm.

As far as conceptualizing the all or the one, I think conscious "energy" is all connected. But then I think an aspect of conscious energy is it is like an "atom" the makes up a whole and each atom has an individual perspective. Each "atom" of consciousness is a point of perception and a separate entity while connected to the source. It's of the same "stuff" as the source.

It's clear to me that what each "atom" of awareness or consciousness manifests as awareness is unlimited or seemingly infinite as a potential. In other words, as a point of individual awareness what "I" am aware of can increase dramatically. But then these increases in awareness are related to what the "whole" or source is. We are basically tapping into aspects of the source in other words. In my way of seeing the totality, it is increasing in awareness as we are. It's like a computer adding memory chips. The source creates new atoms of itself and as those atoms gain awareness and understanding the source itself increases in potential awareness. This idea kind of goes against religion that conceptualizes a God as complete and not evolving and perfect as it is, but as I see it the desire of the source to be aware of more is why we exist.

Of course if the source is an "entity" and expanding it is not "all." It exists within "other stuff." If one can become aware of more, more exists and that one aware is not everything. Human's I think really can think about this stuff but we are not at a level to understand most of it. But I think at "our level" our task is to raise our awareness as much as possible and this involves discovering our true nature or what we really are, an atom of awareness which is currently entangled with the false identity of this body and it's mind.