Got it!.....

[Redchic12]

What do you mean by “being the body of Christ”

Can you explain that in more detail please?

Originally Posted by Redchic12

What do you mean by “being the body of Christ”

Can you explain that in more detail please?

1 Corinthians 12:12-30 for details…..:)

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think one definition of "I" could be an assertion of ones conditioning.

But I think one does not have to assert one's conditioning or identify with it.

In that case I think the "I" is something different.

one of the more interesting swords I found (swords, cutting things into pieces, a choice between 'one thing' and 'another', I found your galations quote kind of an absence of that by the way) was the difference between 'pure description' and 'description with intent'.

for a lot us when we describe stuff, we are always thinking about where it will take us, or what it will get us, to describe things in the way we do. We then get lost in where we intend to be next... whereas a pure description doesn't have an intent to go somewhere else, it just basically says something about what is sitting there in front of us, with no implicit thoughts that it should change to become something else that we think we would like better.

i think maybe, to the extent I could choose to describe things in the more 'real' way... I could also then possibly begin to see that maybe, I don't have to describe things at all... or at least not all the time? and then maybe just maybe I would start to understand what it is like to just 'be' an 'i', without all the conditioning that i currently require to know how the process of 'being' should work.

I don't particularly favor the idea of being like god... but I do like the idea of getting rid of this burdensome conditioning lol!

[Honza]

Being beyond the 'I' and being free of the 'I' is a worthy goal. But practically speaking I would imagine that the 'I' always creeps back in. All it takes is for God to say the word 'I' and there it is again. Just think how many times Gods like Jesus, Sai Baba, Yahweh or Krishna say 'I'. The 'I' is always present within God. So to me reality is really a God/I equilibrium. A bit like binary computer language - a lot of zeros and ones.

Reality sort of goes - God, God, I, God, I, I, God etc. Just like writing a computer program. 001011000111 etc.

[Maisy]

I had similar thoughts reading through the posts. I just wondered what is the word "identity" really about?

I looked up one definition:

i·den·ti·ty
noun
1.
the fact of being who or what a person or thing is.

To me that means existing. I exist in other words. I experience and perceive. I am an identity. Really I could shorten the word id-entity to entity. I wonder what's the point in English of adding the (ID) in front of entity? I would not say I have an identity, I would say I am it. Because I think I am the experiencer of inner and outer content. I am the identity or entity that experiences and perceives IT or the other. I am not the content or what I am perceiving or experiencing. That changes all the time. Even all the inner brain produced content, emotions, feelings, thought will change or disappear completely when I leave the body.

[Maisy]

Just a few of my thoughts or thinking...

But then is wanting to get rid of conditioning the way to be free of it? Maybe something like indifference works better. Not caring if it is there or not. Maybe the problem is not that it exists or is there, the problem is we habitually pay attention to it. Or that we identify with it. (Which is the outcome of paying attention to it I think.)

We think conceptually (in our minds) there is this "me" and this "me" is conditioned. Then this "me" wants to be free of the conditioning. But really I think the "me" is conditioning too. No matter what the "me" does or how it moves, up, down, right, left, sideways, backwards, forward, any movement of it (as thought) is still within the box of "me" and so conditioned. Even to ask "how" is an assertion or projection of "me" or conditioning. Asking how to get rid of it is an assertion of it. "Me" is an idea and that's why it will always be conceptual and conditioned.

We identify with the conditioning and beliefs, culturally etc and project it outwardly and inwardly. We experience through it, like a red filter over a camera lens. It changes experience, alters it.

But then some religious and spiritual content, and some mystics as well, give evidence one can be free of it. Is it hard not to project an idea or belief into or onto the now? To just look and experience without some idea semi-imposed over it? Like right now in this now moment. Is there something we need to get rid of or find? Something we need to discover or achieve? What if everything I just wrote is discovered or seen as conditioning? As something not worth our attention? What if we could drop every idea? And just be without any movement of thought? Not carrying one belief about anything.

I think that's enlightenment or Christ realization or whatever one (conditioned) calls it. It's not that we give up anything, or do something, I think we discover or become aware that we never really do or not do, give up or not give up, those are all ideas and the "I" is an idea as well. A projection of one's conditioning. What are we and what is now if we drop every idea about me and it?

I will always be aware of myself. I am aware I exist. I think the question is what am I as far as an experience or perception of the now. That's where I think we have power. In every moment we can choose what we pay attention to and thus make real. Mystics don't usually write it as a positive though, as a doing. Like I wrote "we can choose." Mystics usually say it as something like - we don't choose or not choose (both are projections of a false self) we realize or focus on reality, as it is, before we color it with conditioning or thoughts. Doing or not doing are both ideas, based on ideas something is lacking or needing to be found or changed in the now or through time and effort. One cannot get out of the box from within the box. One just has to see the box is an idea and not real. But it is made real in the world that's for sure. We project un-real things outward into reality and they become real and experienced that way.

Every human is fundamentally the same. But humans invent a billion ways to divide themselves and feel different from each other.

[FallingLeaves]

one of my own problems is, I would try to find the 'perfect' feeling or attitude so that I could know that the next thing coming was the destination I wanted to go to.

in this case try to find the perfect feeling or attitude so that it would mean I would be free of conditioning.

Unfortunately, that just becomes more conditioning.

So I think now that is wrong. It just invites more karmic reactions, and my experience is that even if I find a 'perfect' feeling or attitude that works for now, eventually, the wheel of karma will turn, and I will get kicked out again.

so the only thing I can think of is, if I don't wanna do something, I simply shouldn't do it. Kinda like that verse in the bible where god simply said 'let you 'no' be your 'no''? No need to make a production out of it, just quit and move on.

well that is what I think but it is much easier said than done, we love our activity...

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

one of my own problems is, I would try to find the 'perfect’ Kinda like that verse in the bible where god simply said 'let you 'no' be your 'no''? ...

FallingLeaves,

This reminds me of when I was back in school. I benefited greatly from participating in formal debate. Each year we had a debate topic(s) and had to be prepared to take either the affirmative or the negative position…..only learning which position was required of us at the start of the debate. There was no in between…..our ‘yes’ had to be yes….our ‘no’ had to be no. Our personal opinion on the topic did not matter.

This, of course, is what happens in court trials….the defense team vs the prosecutor……the jury being the third party and the evaluator of the arguments.

IMO ‘perfect’ is a moving target…..remembering the quote: “To live is to change, to be perfect is to change often”. To be honest with ourselves we must live by what we believe to be true. To be totally honest we must accept that these beliefs are subject to change….the better argument, teacher or guru can present a more viable truth. We must be aware that it can be a program of the ego that convinces us that our ‘truth’ is the Truth…….

In short, we must allow ourselves to pursue the perfect. IMO if there is an ‘end’ it is alluded to in 1 Corinthians 13:12…..(quoting only these 5 words)…” Now I know in part”……

[FallingLeaves]

Molearner,

you said a lot of good stuff. Personally though, I think the whole point of this is just to show us, there isn't one true perfect end.

But that is just me

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Molearner,

you said a lot of good stuff. Personally though, I think the whole point of this is just to show us, there isn't one true perfect end.

But that is just me

Basically what I was saying….perfect is a moving target…..I could give what I perceive the Bible tells us about being perfect……