God created evil,

[sky]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I agree...sometimes I wonder if the OT God ever really did those murderous terrible things!

He certainly did, in the primitive minds of some Scribes their thoughts became reality...

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky

The Bible is certainly full of wrath and punishment which is 'deserved'.
Teachings that instill 'fear' when according to some Verses 'fear' is not from God, but rather from the enemy satan seem very contradictory, imo....

The initial verse you quoted in Post #1 is from the 45th Chapter of Isaiah.

From my perspective, to the Jews of that time, that chapter expresses amazing hope when confronted by difficult odds/times. In Christianity, that chapter also reinforces that things will change and there will be deliverance/salvation just like it was for the Jews in Isaiah chapter 45. For both groups: those scriptures emphasize that the Lord will not give up on them.

For some, how the events unfolded and worked out in chapter 45 is considered a miracle. I suspect some can't 'see that' but there are others who see those recorded events in that chapter that way. But then, these are my opinions.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Altair

What was ''wrath'' and 'punishment'' yesterday may be called ''life lesson'' today. That sounds more sweet does it not? However, the same experiences happen: people experience pain and suffering..

Today: the West is possibly facing Nuclear War on 4 fronts.

The prospect of seeing 'mushroom' over populated area as was shown almost 79 years ago is something I suspect most people don't think about but when they did appear back then, how it changed peoples beliefs must have been dramatic.

[sky]

Originally Posted by charly233

Yes the old testament god sometimes sounds more like Satan to me. The real God, the I Am, is a god of love. This god doesn't punish anyone.

I also agree, but then it's all coming from the minds of some primitive cultures/belief systems who's perspectives were so different to ours. We have to forgive and try to understand those who knew no better. Imo.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by charly233

Yes the old testament god sometimes sounds more like Satan to me. The real God, the I Am, is a god of love. This god doesn't punish anyone.

.

Originally Posted by sky

I also agree, but then it's all coming from the minds of some primitive cultures/belief systems who's perspectives were so different to ours. We have to forgive and try to understand those who knew no better. Imo.

When Israel had been over run by 'enemies', those that were 'rounded up', ending up in captivity in Babylon. There was no hope of being 'free' again and no chance of being allowed to return to their land.

Then in the Lord's own time, he rose up a non-believer to do his 'bidding' and lead a virtually bloodless coup. That chap today is looked upon by some for his human rights initiatives and bringing about racial equalities. That event has become to many an important chapter in Jewish history and became the hope, in the opinion of some, for Christians today.

[charly233]

Originally Posted by sky

We have to forgive and try to understand those who knew no better. Imo.

Yes we also need to forgive those fundamentalists and others who still propagate such beliefs even today.

[Maisy]

Being a Christian has certainly been a very different experience at different times in history. I'm no expert so some of this might be wrong. There was no such thing as "Christians" until Jesus began to change some beliefs and practices of Jews. So no writers of the OT were Christians. The God's conceptualized in the OT were invented by different "religious" groups I guess related to Judaism and ancient Hebrews in some historic ways. The first "Christians" considered themselves Jews with some different beliefs. Eventually followers of Jesus completely broke away from Judaism and "Christianity" became it's own religion.

The cultural and political environment Christianity and ancient Hebrews existed in also changed over time. During some periods Christians and Hebrews were hunted down and tortured and killed or made slaves for their beliefs. In other periods Christians themselves hunted down and killed people for their beliefs. A lot of that seemed to involve what the leaders of Rome believed in or the leaders of whatever time and place such religious groups lived in. Then later there were a series of religious wars between Christians and Muslims started primarily to secure control of holy sites considered sacred by both groups.

So a lot of intense violence was always present in some form when the various books of the bible were written and so anyone writing about "God" during these historical periods would naturally have to involve their God concepts with the violence they were experiencing everywhere. In fact, their God would have to be involved in all of it as God was conceptualized as all knowing and all powerful.

So naturally if a religious God believing group was "losing" against others in various ways, being prosecuted or discriminated against, or being involved in conflicts or wars, naturally they would have to account for why their God was not helping them or protecting them or making them the winners in such conflicts. That's a big factor of what led to the writings and beliefs we have about God in the OT in my opinion. These different groups and belief systems also were fighting for members or converts. This was not some small thing either. The more people you had on "your side" or in your group meant more power and through much of history, those without power were made slaves or killed and tortured.

Now days life in many Western countries is stable and safe depending on where you live and the laws and such there and so one is not in danger of being killed for their beliefs. In other places on earth people are still fighting and being killed for their beliefs. But in the safe areas, we may look back at the God depicted in the OT and think wow that was not a good God. But we really don't have the context. Don't forget these groups believed in God and were suffering intense violence against them. They had to intellectually account for why their God was not protecting them. Thus we end up with the God views expressed in books of the bible like in Isaiah. Stating non-believers were being punished by God meant these groups would get more members through fear of this God's wrath. Also, it would explain why such groups conceptually aligned with God were losing various conflicts.

In life the "good" side does not always win. So those who believe in God have to come up with reasons why this is so. This is really the birth of some religious and spiritual philosophies. Trying to explain why the good sometimes loses to the bad. The earliest ideas were one must try to "please" God thus why animal sacrifices were invented. Trying to please God is also a huge theme in the OT. Doing what God wants us to do or else we get punished.

Really I think these ideas are not that far off from the truth in some ways. According to mediums and so on, our future and place in the astral planes will be determined by our own state of consciousness we develop. By what we are and do. While a lot of these mediums and new philosophies don't involve a God overseer authority concept, the basic thing is still what we do and are is very important to what happens to us.

[sky]

Originally Posted by charly233

Yes we also need to forgive those fundamentalists and others who still propagate such beliefs even today.

It's amazing that there are still some Denominations, who like you say, still propagate the same beliefs, it's like they are stuck in time and haven't noticed the contradictions between various Bibles. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but it worries me when young children and vulnerable members are 'Brain Washed' and threatened by eternal damnation if they dare to ask questions instead of having blind faith...

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by sky

....it worries me when young children and vulnerable members are 'Brain Washed' and threatened
by eternal damnation if they dare to ask questions instead of having blind faith...

And this is why I don't hold back that I think teaching this type of, eternal damnation, is 'Child Abuse'.

[Maisy]

A more "enlightened" view is perhaps "God" is not involved in the different religions humankind invents and God loves everyone that exists equally regardless of what we believe or do. Our state of consciousness, whether we are full of love and peace, or hate and anger for example, ultimately will determine where we exist and the types of "persons" that exist in our environment. So the "highest rewards" and places are available to all.

It's up to us to decide who and what we want to be. If we spend our time in conflict with others, the universe will honor our decision and keeps us in places we can be involved in such things. If we instead choose love and peace, the universe will also honor our decision and we will end up in places that best suit our nature, with others that share such a nature.