People free of suffering

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Maisy

... I think it's being liberated from one's own "mind." If I have no interest in what I am thinking or
what others are thinking (or saying) don't put any importance on it as it is just "vapor" it's here then gone!

You said it! Poof! Unnecessary, silly thought gone.

[Maisy]

What's the middle way? Just sitting here now I am thinking about it lol. So Buddha went through that life with that group giving up eating and such to find whatever it was they were looking for, like enlightenment. Harsh practices. Trying really hard to get "it" though any means one can imagine. Buddha realized that was not working. But the opposite, leading a worldly life seeking pleasure was not it either. If I remember the story right he got a job on a river ferry and found the middle way. Not much detail there lol. Or in one story he decides to sit under a tree in meditation until he get's "it" no matter how long it takes. Then a "miracle" happens and he's enlightened. That's the story anyway. His story turned into a huge world religion with now 520 million people in it. Are 520 people "enlightened" whatever that means? I don't know. I'd assume not. Who really knows what "enlightenment" means or actually is anyway?

I think people are people and are pretty much the same everywhere, in a religion or not. We are all seeking happiness. Some seek it in bad ways and some in good ways. That's life. We help others or harm others as we go about our lives trying to find happiness or pleasure, contentment or love or whatever we like. For me I understand the term "middle way" like this and I think it relates to the Buddha story in some aspects. Say we try to reach some concept or idea like "enlightenment" through effort. All religions have this. A "goal" or reward and the means offered to get there or achieve it.

One can spend a lot of effort, sacrifice, time, and energy TRYING to get there! Just tell me what to do to be enlightened and I will do it! That kind of thing. That's part of the Buddha story. He found "trying" did not work and he was not changing or getting anywhere. Trying does not work and not trying doesn't work either as one just stays the same. See that's what I see as the middle way. What is the middle between trying and not trying? Normally we think of trying and not trying as opposites. But they are not opposites at all. Both involve the same tryer. The opposite is not having a tryer who can try or not try. Not having the one that is doing. The one that does trying or not trying. What is the self that tries and does not try? What is it and can I get rid of it?

Turns out "I am it." I exist as a consciousness that has identified with its thoughts or mental content as itself. What if there never was anything to get? Like enlightenment or whatever reward one is imagining one can get or find or achieve. It's not that it does not exist, "many mystics" have said they found it but they sure have a hard time explaining how one gets it right. Why? Because the "solution" to the riddle I think is we are preventing "it" from being experienced or manifesting though this identification.

[Maisy]

As soon as a thought comes that something is missing, that now is not perfect and complete as it is, one is in the mental world. The conceptual world. That's where consciousness makes it's bed and lives there. A giant reality all put together by mind. Assumptions are accepted as truths and never questioned. "Emptiness" living in the now free of past and future what are these words pointing at? A "middle way?" Can I be here now without one conflict? Without any desire for anything? With no comment about the what is? Truly empty? Where I am not seeking one thing? Where I have truly emptied my mind. Swept it clean as Buddhism says.

So I think "the middle way" is finding the middle between the tryer and the not tryer. Finding or "being" where no one is there to do either. I am still completely there or here, it's just I am no longer having my attention in mind. Then no thought can move me from complete peace. I have no resistance to anything yet I can understand and know and perceive everything as it is. I am more aware, not less when empty.

If I am in the now, right here and right now, and truly dropped EVERYTHING mentally I carry, (the Buddhist raft Metaphor) now I have changed. My consciousness, me, is no one and nobody. I still exist fully. I know who I am and others know who I am. But I no longer experience my mental content or thoughts as reality. Every moment is brand new and I am not attached to how it is or how I want it to be. That "person" who comments mentally on everything, and then "reacts" in positive or negative ways, the thought stream in the mind, it's gone! Well not gone, it's just I have no interest in it, I give it no reality, so then the brain quiets way down.

My partner says, "the sink has stains" well what I have learned is the unconscious mind produces such things out of self centered (ego) interest. Anyone identified with their content will say such things. They are even unaware of what they are saying and that's why if you ask someone about what they said they will say they did not say it, or it was not what they meant etc. They were not involved in the creation of that thought or what they said in the first place. But they think they were because they are living as if mind/thought is them.

Originally Posted by Maisy

. They were not involved in the creation of that thought or what they said in the first place. But they think they were because they are living as if mind/thought is them.

Maisy,

Thank you……:). I hate to reduce such a thoughtful posting down to 2 sentences but rules are rules. But what I did highlight definitely warrants contemplation IMO……..

[sky]

Originally Posted by Maisy
"They were not involved in the creation of that thought or what they said in the first place."

If you see it that way to which you are entitled then they must have 'a mind out of control'....

[Gem]

If we take the surface meaning of the middle way as moderation, not gluttony or deprivation, we can see how gluttony implies cravings and deprivation implies aversions. The absence of craving and aversion is 'equanimity', so the middle way, rather than being regulation by the mind is actually the cessation of mental regulation, but it can't be willfully attained because such exertion of will implies aversion toward craving and aversion, and that's the complex we refer to as 'bondage'. You'd be surprised when you find out you live like that all the time, but the one who lives like that isn't actually you - though you remain convinced that it is.

It's different to the simple acceptance that pain and pleasure will arise in the continuum sensations, and naturally you wouldn't endure pain that indicates harm, but I train at the gym and labour outside, so I feel uncomfortable all the time in a way that is beneficial for my health and happiness.

In meditation practice, it is actually pretty much the same, and like training, no pain no gain is a real thing. You don't make gains unless you 'get uncomfortable'. The reason people don't like that is precisely because of their aversion toward pain, which is the same as the desire for comfort.

When meditation is passed off as a 'all good' without any 'bad' it is because people place a lot of importance on experience as ego relies on the dynamics of avoiding and resisting this and grasping and clinging to that. One avoids a type of experience because it it is deemed important, and chases another experience for the same reason. The skill of of ego is making you believe the one engaged in that craving and aversion is me and keeping you distracted by that very same process so you don't see that it isn't. Hencewhy, even though experience can't be held at all, there is a constant endeavour to do so, even though it is inevitable that things will change and 'this will pass'.

Considering that, the idea that meditation is an activity undertaken to bring about 'an experience' is a bit of a misnomer, when meditation is actually the conscious awareness of what 'this' experience is actually like. It's just that investigating this experience with all of your attention reveals insight into the underlying nature of experience as a whole, which is the truth concerning mind and matter. If your concern is with the truth, your preferences become irrelevant because the truth is not affected by what you want and do not want.

If you are not pursuing what you want, or resisting what you don't, there is no exertion of will upon the world, so what we refer to as 'effort' in meditation isn't using will to do this so you get that, but rather, harnessing all of the attention to examine 'this' (as it is). It's not as if some discomfort arises so you think it's important and have the idea about focusing in on it (so it will go away), or a pleasure come up and you try to enhance that - but there is neutrality in the simplicity, 'feels like this'.

The mind is habitualised into reacting, so you feel some nice subtle energies and all of a sudden it's very important, chakras and kandalini etc. and when it passes and discomforts arise, very important, so I don't like it, resist and avoid, and you start squirming around trying to get comfortable. Note in this how the sensations in the body affect reactivity in the mind which rules the roost and takes over your life.

Most of us don't know it's happening because ego has to work unseen. If you see it, it can't 'steer the ship' anymore, and when ego drives the boat, life is inherently miserable, so that is the bondage we want to liberated from, not because it is unpleasant, but because it is untrue.

When Buddha determined to wake up, he went to extremes and sat still for weeks on end, and his meditation was not 'all good'. Mara attacked with a army of demons and his daughters tried to tempt him, but I interpret that as the demons of Buddha's own mind and the and habit of being ruled by his temptations, because I was attacked and tempted by my own demons when undertaking a long retreat, but I had established equanimity, so nightmares that arose couldn't take over the wheelhouse. Then I separated from ego and saw it as a whole. It wasn't happy about being exposed, so threw every trick in the book at me, which had always worked before, but I was just there watching, and my only thought was, "Huh, that's not actually me".

I'm more or less like Maisy (probably less) in that egocentricity can be there, and sometimes not, but either way, that's not my concern as I concern myself with simple things like training, mowing and creating beautiful spaces in the world. It is however of great concern when you live as that, and because I broke the bonds via intense meditation practice (in the right way), I'm not going to say 'moderation' is the middle way. I'm saying the middle way is equanimity, and in my experience at least, the spiritual path entails extremes of experience in several different ways, and you need stable equanimity to get through it.

[Gem]

I had another Gibran verse to share that opens up the conceptualisation of "Pain". http://www.katsandogz.com/gibran/onpain.php

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

I had another Gibran verse to share that opens up the conceptualisation of "Pain". http://www.katsandogz.com/gibran/onpain.php

Your post on the middle way, was really informative and it really activated me to notice myself presently in my current situation that, I found myself getting caught up in, within myself.

I think that bit where you shared you noticed yourself ‘that’s not me’ is good advice.

I’ve been noticing my reactions to others sweating the small stuff, being in their aversions to their errors ( judged by them as such). I found myself reacting to those aversions, then when I stopped with it all and let my insight, reveal the issue. I thought, ‘I’m sweating the small stuff too’ lol.

I think for me those pesky little entanglements at times rear their head. I realised how easy we can fall into old patterns through others modelling.

I think sometimes that pause, breathe, be fully with it all, can bring to light a clear space to step forward, More aware of yourself with others. I mean it’s one thing to manage yourself alone, but interactions with life around you can let that pesky little ego, think it needs to take the lead once more, simply because another lets it lead the show at times. My aversion to that, means I’m fighting simply because I’m aware, it doesn’t have to be that way, but in this instance, I’m breathing more life into it, by that very aversion.

So in this scenario where you’re immersed in life with others being challenged this way, how do you approach that within yourself where your not on the mat, but very much just interacting with others and aware of this kind of scenario? How do you manage you in it this way?

[sky]

Originally Posted by Maisy

What's the middle way? So Buddha went through that life with that group giving up eating and such to find whatever it was they were looking for, like enlightenment. Harsh practices. Trying really hard to get "it" though any means one can imagine. Buddha realized that was not working. But the opposite, leading a worldly life seeking pleasure was not it either.

Exactly, He then realised a balanced lifestyle is the way to freedom.
If we are always seeking happiness through self indulgence, we are not free, if we are constantly fighting against ourselves and the world we are not free either. It's the middle path that brings freedom.....

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

So in this scenario where you’re immersed in life with others being challenged this way, how do you approach that within yourself where your not on the mat, but very much just interacting with others and aware of this kind of scenario? How do you manage you in it this way?

Today I took my chainsaw to my sister's place and cut down and uprooted a massive philodendron, and cut big branches off a crepe myrtle and chopped everything up to fill the green bins. It's very peaceful, and I don't want to deal with people because everyone's erratic. There is a large lilly pilly there that has to be taken down, but I need my platform ladder and pole saw to do that, and it'll take a few hours, and need my mattock and axes to chop the roots away so I can take the stump out. I know it is labour and it's not comfortable, but it's more peaceful than comfort can be because I'm confident in my knowledge and ability to do these things.

After I did the things, I came home to find some parts for one of one of my whipper snippers had arrived. I opened the outer package, and the supplier had written 'Thanks' on the inner wrapping and put 3 lollies in there. Not only that, but he sent me 2 parts instead of one, and a bunch of extra bolts and hardware. That's the world of appreciation and generosity I like to live in. I then found a few more problems when I tested the machine, so I had to fix up a couple more different things and glue a broken bit. I'm leaving the glue to dry overnight, but it's a temp fix and I have to try to find a new part, so the first place I go is to the guy who sent the lollies.

Other people with stress in their heads, people who are trying to get something from you, people who are full of the proverbial, have to be pushed out as the people who are giving extra, talking straight and putting lollies in your package need to be welcomed in.

Now the guy I use for arbourist work, my spare parts guys, my garden equipment supplier and so on are all straight shooters, kind hearted and take pride in the quality of their advice and workmanship, whereas the ones I've met who talk funny and smell a bit fishy are not on my radar.

A long time ago a lady who was like my in-law started rumours about me and destroyed my reputation because the idiots she talked to believed her stories, and at the time, it was distressing, but now I've changed, and people can be malicious, that's up to them, and I won't be upset, but if they don't understand where they stand and try to cross my boundaries, they'll smash against an impenetrable wall, and I will not be be perturbed. On the contrary, I'll be in metta and wishing for their happiness.

So, it's their stress, they want to give it to me, but I don't want it and they can't make me take it - so it's, 'No thanks,' and may you be happy.

Recently a neighbour next to my mum's place gave me problems (my mum died and I was re-landscaping the garden), and went full rage on me and now they hate me. I know they have gossiped with the other neighbours and tried to tarnish my name as well, but I'm normal, so when I see them I wave and smile like 'good morning'. They scowl and cringe, but that's their life and it's up to them. The bush care lady also hates me because I trimmed the trees that came into the driveway and planted a row of lomandra, and same deal, I smile and wave like a normal person with no hard feelings, because I know her and basically like her, and she maintains her hatred - but it doesn't change me.