Why does GOD exist?

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I don't worry too much about 'shoulda', I'm past the rebel without a pause bit.

This is the salient point for me, although it's not God that's settling but myself. I dare say we can bang on about what God might mean to others until the cows come home but it really won't get us anywhere. Frankly I'm beginning to tire of talking about God and being an atheist doesn't help. I'm very much with Haile Selassie in that Spirituality is not about the theologies and ideologies, it's about how we experience our existence. Interestingly enough I've seen very little in this thread about how people experience God and what their relationship with him is. The relationships seem to be around beliefs.

The seeker is always that which is sought, so if we are seeking God, a deeper richer connection....??? If we are seeking things that we perceive are stronger than, better then, more than us what does that say about us? That we can't find those things within ourselves?

"There is a great happiness in not wanting, in not being someone, in not going somewhere."
J. Krishnamurti

Can we not simply exist? Do we really need to live in ways we could never have imagined? Allowing the Universe unfold as it will brings all the things we seek to us, because often as seekers we're running away from and not towards.

Now your talking.

The unknown tends to open up all kinds of streams of needing to know, wanting to know. It seems to me humans like to fill the gaps when their are gaps in our own story, our own creation, our experience. God as the head honcho appears to let people settle knowing something good will open that unfolding. He’s the good guy in our side! That’s very comforting, rather than not knowing and having nothing to support us through life in this way.

To settle as yourself with life and exist along side all life and the unknown of all that, many do continue to make/want the unknown to be something long before it comes into being. The unknown of life unfolding would feel more comforting knowing someone has our back, someone or something good, is in charge of those tricky parts of our life, those parts we cannot always know in the immediacy of each moment. In most cases god becomes the good guy who takes care of things in the unknown and that’s comforting.

For an atheist or non believer in a god, they tend to accept life more so for what life is. They seem to have an advantage over those who do hold onto beliefs. The god idea/concept shifts the power and unknown into the hands of something that takes over from where they cant control, always know. God knows, that’s comforting. That makes the unknown more bearable. That means someone is steering the ship. God help us if there isn’t a driver!!!

In the end we can settle, we can trust,we can find peace. We can live and let everything we’ve come to understand in our journey as part of the whole. Our own wholeness fitting into itself.

I’m comforted by the past awareness that has shown me more than I imagined. I think now, I can settle into my life accepting and more aware. God helps those who help themselves- I think that relates to being open to life and letting life enter in ways where we don’t hold onto things to tightly, where we receive all offerings but learn to let life become a co creative/supportive connection.

Deep connection to self brings deeper connection to all life. If you’d only seeking god as that, sure that works. It has too. It’s your creation and your belief. If you become aware of what you as an empty vessel without you and all that in the way then that works too. In fact everything works until we decide it no longer does, no longer fits.

And then of course more life is seen, our focus shifts. Everything thus far contributes to that unfolding, so if god is our background comfort, that can’t be a bad thing.

Originally Posted by lemex

Not sure if this statement "there are reasons" means there are or there are no reasons. Reasons have already be given so I am going to take it you mean there are reasons. I've been told about the above there is a Supreme Being as well as in the question, "Isn't God supposed to just BE?" Unless it's changed yep, this is what is said and that's what I and others have said, it just is, talking about no beginning no end. We're in agreement. No beginning, this is the reason it exists, if it exists. Why go beyond that? Do we have life here and what is life? Here I mean being. There is life (beings) we see here, there is life (beings) at levels outside this plane, then there are spiritual forms of beings (life). Life or being seems to be 100%, existent at many levels that are probably quite large. Life may be existent and there cannot be anything but (being) life.

This statement was a question and it's what the OP and therefore this whole thread is all about. Well, kinda sorta maybe. But what came first, existence or the reason to exist? Or if we simply exist does that mean existence beyond reason?



What makes this Being Supreme??? Or are we simply talking about the personification of what's so far beyond our ken that we should have the sense not to talk about it anyway?

Originally Posted by lemex

Does this apply everywhere. God always has been which I'm not sure has or has not been said. But it is an amazing thought if one reflects on it. But we do not think of God as alive, or a living being, but existent. Can this not be the same thing as life or living, being. Nothing should exist, not life, not consciousness, not even being aware, but there is something about 1+1+1 = 1. Nothing should be. The question is a basic one, is there a source. There should be no source. There should be no life and I consider source a life or existent. Yet the opposite is observable and I say, I am not the source, if I am I apologize. The reason is being existent. Make no other attachment.

The human mind is always going to look to make sense of things, and how long has this particular question been rearing its ugly head yet we're still no further on than the caveman who invented philosophy. He was out walking one day and wondered who put the animals he could hunt here, who shaped the cave he was living in, who had the good sense to make it dark when it came time to sleep? Someone made it happen, some being far more powerful than he - a source/God by any other name.


If you really wanted to understand what's going on here then grab some popcorn, a few beers and a copy of Millennium on DVD.

Originally Posted by lemex

What causality is meant, the cause of God? The causality is without making other attachments nothing cannot not exist, nothing cannot be! I don't think it possible to escape awareness. A concept that's makes no sense we observe. In fact there is existence many times over at many levels. Here's a theory put forth along the same lines, I can't comprehend it but maybe it'll make sense to someone else. There are infinite possibilities. And in the infinite possibility something exists and at the same time nothing exists in infinite possibility, both exist. It is because of infinite possibility of potential. Causality is then in infinite possibilities. Nothingness also exists. But our standard idea about God also deal with infinite possibilities where "it" awareness comes about. It manifests because it's possible. There was never a causality to God unless there was. How is nothingness defined? Nothing cannot or does not or will not exist where logically (physically) it should be at 100% but we have another 100%.

The question in the OP is "Why does God exist?" The "Why?" is the beginnings of the causality that God is supposed to be above/beyond, it implies that there are reasons for God's existence. God exists because..... is a part of causality.


I'm not a big fan of infinite possibilities, it always comes across as mentality more than anything else being honest. And there's a paradox that has never been solved as far as I'm aware. If there are infinite possibilities, isn't possibility that the possibilities are not infinite also one of those possibilities?


What you're talking about here is not possibilities but quantum theory's field of probability, and what you're trying to work out has already been solved by Schroedinger's Cat. Clever cat. There is no such thing as 'nothingness', because if it's in our consciousness it must be something. 'Nothingness' is a concept.

Originally Posted by lemex

Out of all infinite possibilities does one exist btw, what about other possibilities that can exist, do any of them exist at the same time. There should even be, no source. It may be the word that does not exist. Are you saying God is not the source or there is no source. Now I will say I don't think (any) God is perfect because I simply see imperfection, but has no meaning to me about a Supreme Being. I'm interest what you believe, do you think source exists.

I'm very much with Alan Watts on this one, with a touch of quantum theory. Watts said "If you are Spiritual, you are God playing at being not-God" and if you look at it carefully, that's quite true. I also believe that while we're talking about "God is..." we're not listening to our own narratives on so many levels. Jesus said that if you want to know God you have to know yourself first, so really how much of that is going on?



You are the source, you are the source of your beliefs, perceptions, definitions, reality.......

Originally Posted by JustBe

My perception- in all your offerings coming from your consciousness, there is all that, then there is you.

One and the same.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

One and the same.

I have no doubt.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The human mind is always going to look to make sense of things, and how long has this particular question been rearing its ugly head yet we're still no further on than the caveman who invented philosophy. He was out walking one day and wondered who put the animals he could hunt here, who shaped the cave he was living in, who had the good sense to make it dark when it came time to sleep? Someone made it happen, some being far more powerful than he - a source/God by any other name.

Totally, have to agree important and true. Your post are informative and have given many hidden influences on the subject that exist but are ignored.

Watts said "If you are Spiritual, you are God playing at being not-God" and if you look at it carefully, that's quite true. I also believe that while we're talking about "God is..." we're not listening to our own narratives on so many levels. Jesus said that if you want to know God you have to know yourself first, so really how much of that is going on?

A bit too limited for me. If one is Spiritual one is playing at not being God. If you are God you are God. God hides from itself, is that even possible? And isn't everyone spiritual though. Actually I'd say it's right also to say we are listening to our own narratives because many reasons have pointed out (given). Don't we have to see the narrative?

You are the source, you are the source of your beliefs, perceptions, definitions, reality.......

Again not sure what is being said, one thing or two things. If two things, then I say I am not the source. If I am, prove to me I am this source and created the universe we're in. Prove I am the source and you are not. Are we really the source of our beliefs, I tend to see belief is not independent of other factors (influences), you actually identified other ones, like above, in history. Much of what is belief actually is picked up first.

I enjoy much of what you have said that challenge us to see other forgotten influences. I agree with a lot of what you say.

Originally Posted by JustBe

Now your talking.

The unknown tends to open up all kinds of streams of needing to know, wanting to know. It seems to me humans like to fill the gaps when their are gaps in our own story, our own creation, our experience. God as the head honcho appears to let people settle knowing something good will open that unfolding. He’s the good guy in our side! That’s very comforting, rather than not knowing and having nothing to support us through life in this way.

To settle as yourself with life and exist along side all life and the unknown of all that, many do continue to make/want the unknown to be something long before it comes into being. The unknown of life unfolding would feel more comforting knowing someone has our back, someone or something good, is in charge of those tricky parts of our life, those parts we cannot always know in the immediacy of each moment. In most cases god becomes the good guy who takes care of things in the unknown and that’s comforting.

For an atheist or non believer in a god, they tend to accept life more so for what life is. They seem to have an advantage over those who do hold onto beliefs. The god idea/concept shifts the power and unknown into the hands of something that takes over from where they cant control, always know. God knows, that’s comforting. That makes the unknown more bearable. That means someone is steering the ship. God help us if there isn’t a driver!!!

In the end we can settle, we can trust,we can find peace. We can live and let everything we’ve come to understand in our journey as part of the whole. Our own wholeness fitting into itself.

I’m comforted by the past awareness that has shown me more than I imagined. I think now, I can settle into my life accepting and more aware. God helps those who help themselves- I think that relates to being open to life and letting life enter in ways where we don’t hold onto things to tightly, where we receive all offerings but learn to let life become a co creative/supportive connection.

Deep connection to self brings deeper connection to all life. If you’d only seeking god as that, sure that works. It has too. It’s your creation and your belief. If you become aware of what you as an empty vessel without you and all that in the way then that works too. In fact everything works until we decide it no longer does, no longer fits.

And then of course more life is seen, our focus shifts. Everything thus far contributes to that unfolding, so if god is our background comfort, that can’t be a bad thing.

Some people simply can't deal with a half-empty glass, and what they haven't realised is that the other half is full of potential. The other half is also full of air and really there's no such thing as nothing, because even nothing is something. Our relationship with God is a reflection of the relationship we have with ourselves, so while we're projecting towards God we're not finding what we need inside. "God is Love" because.... we don't feel that Love for ourselves or we have never experienced Love like it? Or someone is in control and somehow this Life makes sense after all, it's not for nothing and yes it is comforting.


I can't talk for all atheists because I dare they all have their reasons for being that way but I do take Life more as it comes than perhaps a believer in God does. If you don't believe in God there's nobody to blame when Life goes sideways so somehow you have to find what you need inside yourself. You have to find your own power, you have to pull your socks up and get on with it because there's only you. As an atheist I can't pray to God to get me out of something because that would be hypocritical, I have myself to rely on and that's it.


So if God is your background comfort, what doe that tell you about yourself?


It's been said that God is a personification of reality, All That Is.... etc. Because I don't have a connection to God I can now focus my attention in other directions, I can focus my attention on those around me, nature, myself..... There is no "Well, God said I must Love my fellow man so I'd better get on with it" there is just the doing of it because that's the kind of guy I am. Admittedly it's a work in progress but it's progress just the same.


If I have that connection to myself, the people around me and my own little corner of the galaxy does that mean this atheist is doing God's work?

Originally Posted by lemex

Totally, have to agree important and true. Your post are informative and have given many hidden influences on the subject that exist but are ignored.

Thank you, nice of you to say so.

Originally Posted by lemex

A bit too limited for me. If one is Spiritual one is playing at not being God. If you are God you are God. God hides from itself, is that even possible? And isn't everyone spiritual though. Actually I'd say it's right also to say we are listening to our own narratives because many reasons have pointed out (given). Don't we have to see the narrative?

Yes, everyone is Spiritual so what does that tell you?

OK, try this. Very simply, your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. When you define what something is Spiritual, for example, by extension you define what is not Spiritual. When you define what God is, that is how God exists in your reality, you are creating what God is to you. Alan Watts also said that if you know what God is you don't know what God is, because as soon as you say "God is...." you're talking about your definitions. By extension you're talking about what God is not. God is the omnipotent and omniscient Skydaddy which you are not.

What if you're not talking about God but you are talking about your Self???? If you are God you are God, but you can play at being not God. If everyone is Spiritual, what are those that say they are Spiritual and others are not Spiritual doing? And for the most revealing question of all, what are their reasons?

We do have to see the narrative but it takes a lot of time and effort to shift the dust and look at what's underneath in a very honest way. To understand the reasons humans do anything all you have to do is ask what you get out of it? Some prefer the narrative, to play at being not-God because their definitions of themselves aren't what they could be.

Originally Posted by lemex

Again not sure what is being said, one thing or two things. If two things, then I say I am not the source. If I am, prove to me I am this source and created the universe we're in. Prove I am the source and you are not. Are we really the source of our beliefs, I tend to see belief is not independent of other factors (influences), you actually identified other ones, like above, in history. Much of what is belief actually is picked up first.

I enjoy much of what you have said that challenge us to see other forgotten influences. I agree with a lot of what you say.

Where did your post come from? As I've said before, your reality comes from your definitions and they are your definitions because you created them. They'll be influenced by so many factors, and history being one of them because you'll read about it and have a relationship with the information. Your personality also shapes your reality, as does your genetics by way of how your brain is hardwired and how it processes Spiritual information. Or not. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert will also make a difference to your Spirituality.

What's also not known and almost always ignored is that God has a history before Abraham - and you've said already you don't have much truck with Abrahamic discussions but they're also a part of the mentality that has produced the beliefs in God.

To be honest Lemex, it's nice to talk to someone who doesn't have his head in a goldfish bowl.


http://inspirationalvideosandquotes....rdpress/?p=218

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Good morning, Moonglow


That's the irony of it all. We choose not to believe we are God so that we can wear the badge of Spirituality because it makes us feel better about ourselves. And in that Spirituality we wax Spiritual about what God is and we don't understand that we're not talking about God at all. It's bonkers, isn't it?


Who am I? Who am I not? Did God ask those very same questions when he was alone in the Universe? Or did he just do what he did because he could, because he's God after all? Why can't we do the same, Moonglow? What are the reasons we need reasons for our existence? What are the reasons we need to fill that half-empty glass when it's actually not empty after all? If you ask "What am I not?" what are you actually doing? If I am not God, what narrative am I buying into? Similarly, if I say that I am God? Does that make me Spiritual or do I have a God complex and I'm in dire need of being strapped down before I hurt myself?


God works because of our built-in survival instincts, it serves our purpose to think we are being provided for, looked after and the like. As you're alluding to, there's a benefit in believing in God that 'fills a lack' inside of us. And I don't think you're being harsh at all, I think you're just being straightforward and honest with no pretensions - because they tend to come to the fore in discussions such as these.


If we can't be honest with ourselves, what then?


Once upon a time in history religion and science were one and the same, until there was a falling out between those that were biased towards the science and those that were biased to the ideologies and theologies. At first glance the two aren't compatible, but what I find is telling is that Spiritual/religious people seem to exclude all else but their ideologies and theologies, while many scientists believe in God. Naseem Harramein said that Spirituality is the science we don't understand. Wouldn't it be interesting if we compared Spirituality with magic?


The full Hermetic Principle is "As Above, So Below. So Below, As Above." In Spirituality the other phrase is "All That Is," only it means all that has been labelled as Spiritual. Surely science has a part to play in understanding what some would term as all of God's creation? He did create everything of matter after all so is ignoring science not a slight on God's almighty works?


We are the ones we have been waiting for, Moonglow.

Greetings Greenslade,

It comes across to me how one feels and experience life.
What has been passed down, told to us, and what resonates or not.
God is a reference point, but what is it referring to?

It is called by many names, but do these change it being or just how it is perceived? Perception creates an interpretation, which leads to definitions. But these are just how it is created in ones mind or what gets created.

If God be pure presence and the creating force behind and with in all, then would presume everything is of it. Through such terms and feelings of Soul and/or Spirit doesn't one feel this presence and energy of manifestation and creation?

If so, then existence seems not stagnant, but on going and flowing. In this way would venture to say reasons change, understandings change, perspectives and perceptions change. This seems reflected throughout history.

But, some things tend to hang on or resurface. It seems that the reoccurring themes point to what may be clues to what "God" represents.

Which to me seems for some what the Spiritual exploration and for some termed a journey is about. Exploring that aspect in us. The energetic aspect that seems is more then just this physical body.

For me though it all intertwines. May explore and toss the ball around in regards to "Spiritual" matters, but do not feel it is separate from mind or body. My thoughts affect my body, being inspired affects my mind and feelings. All has influence upon views towards "God" and other aspects of self (energy). Science seems to be reflecting these connections within and around as well.

A guy I work made a comment that many Scientists are Christians, but because of funding has to keep it under wraps. Found this interesting and not all Atheists deny a creator of some kind, nor all scientists are Atheists.

It strikes me a bit bonkers that so much energy is spent by some dividing the self up, while saying "all is one". What fits into the set theory, teaching, philosophy and such. Not all just enough to have me comment here.

I mean if as much energy was invested in uniting together despite differences, as is in dividing, what a force humans can be. What would manifest? Would such thing as God (in what it refers to) even matter?

Wouldn't we see, feel, and find what is sought in God, to be with each and every one of us?

[Taking a Break]

because of political reasons? maybe he doesn't? there seems to be different forces in the universe, so it was necessary to choose a president/king/god so to speak for humanity?

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Greetings Greenslade,

It comes across to me how one feels and experience life.
What has been passed down, told to us, and what resonates or not.
God is a reference point, but what is it referring to?

It is called by many names, but do these change it being or just how it is perceived? Perception creates an interpretation, which leads to definitions. But these are just how it is created in ones mind or what gets created.

If God be pure presence and the creating force behind and with in all, then would presume everything is of it. Through such terms and feelings of Soul and/or Spirit doesn't one feel this presence and energy of manifestation and creation?

If so, then existence seems not stagnant, but on going and flowing. In this way would venture to say reasons change, understandings change, perspectives and perceptions change. This seems reflected throughout history.

But, some things tend to hang on or resurface. It seems that the reoccurring themes point to what may be clues to what "God" represents.

Which to me seems for some what the Spiritual exploration and for some termed a journey is about. Exploring that aspect in us. The energetic aspect that seems is more then just this physical body.

For me though it all intertwines. May explore and toss the ball around in regards to "Spiritual" matters, but do not feel it is separate from mind or body. My thoughts affect my body, being inspired affects my mind and feelings. All has influence upon views towards "God" and other aspects of self (energy). Science seems to be reflecting these connections within and around as well.

A guy I work made a comment that many Scientists are Christians, but because of funding has to keep it under wraps. Found this interesting and not all Atheists deny a creator of some kind, nor all scientists are Atheists.

It strikes me a bit bonkers that so much energy is spent by some dividing the self up, while saying "all is one". What fits into the set theory, teaching, philosophy and such. Not all just enough to have me comment here.

I mean if as much energy was invested in uniting together despite differences, as is in dividing, what a force humans can be. What would manifest? Would such thing as God (in what it refers to) even matter?

Wouldn't we see, feel, and find what is sought in God, to be with each and every one of us?

Hey Moonglow

I was wondering about you and hoping you weren't flash-frozen to the sidewalk as though you'd been trapped in some apocalyptic movie.

The biggest problem, Moonglow, is that science doesn't meet Spirituality. While science is willing to stretch out a hand to Spirituality, Spirituality keeps its hand close to its chest and ignores the rest. So, here's a little secret for you that Spirituality ignores - matter is emergent of consciousness, so the Bible got it right in its own linguistic context. Hurrah for the good guys, except that Spirituality won't embrace that. Sad.

Your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. When you say "God is..." you define how God exists in your reality, you don't define God himself. When you define what God ism, by extension you define what God is not. Usually that's you because humans aren't omnipotent not omniscient, and they tend not to pray to themselves when that's the sensible thing to do.

So you ask "How is it perceived?" but I would ask "What is being perceived?" If there's no clarity as to what we're actually talking about then is anything after that going to make any sense? This is where the discussion of God falls down, while so many are waxing so Spiritual few have taken the time to really understand what they're talking about. The discussion about God is the discussion about ignorance on so many levels.

Science has the answer, not Spirituality nor religion; matter is emergent of consciousness. Matter comes into being because the consciousness of the observer affects the double-slit experiment, so the Bible had it right when it said 'God' created the physical universe. God exists because people believe God exists. Every word that's been said about God is really about the human mind trying to make sense of what can't be grasped by the human mind, but the human ego needs to express it anyway.

What we term as God becomes the personification of all of consciousness, because the human mind just isn't capable of grasping what consciousness is never mind all of it that exists. What we term as God is the personification of all of reality.

The recurring themes about what God is or isn't comes down to mentality and has nothing to do with God. People today believe in God for the very same reasons people believed in God even in pre-Christian times. People pray to God and not Mars to be successful in battle, others pray to God and not Dionysus so that their wine harvest will be a good one. So yes, the names have changed but people are still just people.


If it's all God's creation then what does that say when people separate religion/Spirituality and science? Does the Hermetic principle of "As Above, So Below. So Below, As Above" not mean anything? Isn't science not about coming to an understanding of what God created?


Why do people simply ignore so much of God's works, so much of 'All That Is' then talk about it with so much conviction? I couldn't do that and look at myself in the mirror.

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck

Was he talking about God? Einstein was a believer in God and Tesla was known to be very Spiritual, and so many others past and present were/are the same. At one time religion and science were one and the same, but they 'fell out' and have never talked to each other since. Spirituality is anything you want it to be, God is anything you want him to be, beliefs are anything you want them to be. Reason, logic and truth are all relative to one's own agenda. On the other hand, science is a long process of coming up with facts and there is really no room for beliefs as facts. Yes there are theories but at least scientists are honest enough to say they are theories. In a scientific process the belief in karma would be ridiculed, yet in Spirituality it's a Universal Law that the bad guys will get theirs, even after subsequent reincarnations.

In Gestalt Reality the sum of the parts is not greater than the whole, the sum of the parts is a being unto its own right. So you have a physical body that facilitates your experiences within this plane of existence. You have a brain (allegedly) and a mind that processes sensory inputs from your experience and information that you read/hear, you have so many aspects that make up the being that is 'you' - the one that is Spiritual, the one that goes to work every day...... Your physical body, your consciousness..... so many aspects that are Gestalts or parts of the 'whole you'. If we are 'parts' of God?

The seeker is always that which is sought, Moonglow.