Why does GOD exist?

Originally Posted by Taking a Break

because of political reasons? maybe he doesn't? there seems to be different forces in the universe, so it was necessary to choose a president/king/god so to speak for humanity?

That's probably closer to the truth than you imagine.

[JohnHermes]

If we perceive God as causeless, its reason to exist is "no reason". Paradox

[andrewg3]

The question is why does God exist? I don't think there is a reason for God to exist. Why do you exist, what is your reason? Why do fish exist? Why do stones exist? Why does the sun and moon exist? Were all this created by accident and implicitly our life here a consequence of this, hence also accidentally? Or was it just all conscious and deliberately created?

In my opinion, we are born atheists, we are taught about God by our parents/family/school/friends. I also don't believe in a personal(human-like) God, there is no sense for a personal God to love its creation so much but to punish them for an eternity, right?

For me the personal God also makes no sense and seems arrogant in the way that is omniscient and omnipresent, wants to be praised for an eternity (listen to our prayers while we alive and then wants to be adored forever). The Personal Human Deity like God/Allah was probably invented early by humans. Why is the Personal God a Human and not a Lion?
I don't believe we as humans are superior to animals, it's our perception.

If God created us, then who created God?

We can be our own gods, as god can reside in any of us, there might be no God but we part of a pool of consciousness, it's all about perception as Greenslade wrote.

There are infinite possibilities but for me these 3 make the most sense:1) Simulated Universe (God being the coder), 2) We emerged from a pool of energy and consciousness (God being the source) , 3) We are just a byproduct of an accident in this Universe, and life emerged also by mistake as there would be no other way (we are alive because by pure coincidence everything is in place to keep us alive, distance from SUN for example, and we just evolved with time, otherwise we won't be here and life would not exist).

That's my 2 cents there, but I do wonder, were we created by accident or deliberately? There must be an Universal Force. Even Einstein believed in a God of Spinoza, beauty, harmony, Universal balance). I wouldn't be surprised if we would have been living in a Simulated Universe coded by an alien or being the accidental creation of a giant amoeba.

It's this Universal Source (God/Creator) Conscious? Is it a pool of consciousness? Or is our Creator unconscious and just a mass of energy? Are the living the only conscious ? How do we know that a stone is not conscious as well? I can continue like this for an eternity in an endless loop, but I decide to stop here.

Does life create the Universe or does the Universe create life?

Originally Posted by andrewg3

In my opinion, we are born atheists,

No prize for you then, try harder next time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

Originally Posted by andrewg3

we are taught about God by our parents/family/school/friends. I also don't believe in a personal(human-like) God, there is no sense for a personal God to love its creation so much but to punish them for an eternity, right?

Well kinda... Fear is a rather wonderful motivator and if it was your reality that your Soul was going to burn in eternal hellfire and damnation for eternity, you'd be a Godly person. The same as Spirituality means you don't suffer the hellfire and damnation of those low vibrations and ignorance.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

For me the personal God also makes no sense and seems arrogant in the way that is omniscient and omnipresent, wants to be praised for an eternity (listen to our prayers while we alive and then wants to be adored forever). The Personal Human Deity like God/Allah was probably invented early by humans. Why is the Personal God a Human and not a Lion?

God has a history that goes back to Sumerian times but that's largely ignored in the discussion about God. No point in letting history get in the way when it comes to a good chinwag about God. And don't forget the control mechanism that kept the post-Constantine Christians under the thumb.


God made man, man made religion and religion made God. And God looks like a man because God has no image.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

I don't believe we as humans are superior to animals, it's our perception.

Or ego. Animals have a far greater capacity for Love and for Loving unconditionally than humans do, but few want to know that. Humans are supposedly superior because of intellect.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

We can be our own gods, as god can reside in any of us, it's all about perception as Greenslade wrote.

We already are, what hasn't been thought abut it what are the reasons we don't think we are, or better yet what are the reasons we don't define ourselves as such?

Originally Posted by andrewg3

That's my 2cents there, but I do wonder, were we created by accident or deliberately? There must be an Universal Force ( I don't know if conscious or unconscious) but (Even Einstein believed in a God of Spinoza, beauty, harmony, Universal balance). I wouldn't be surprised if we would have been living in a Simulated Universe coded by an alien or being the accidental creation of a giant amoeba.

Matter is emergent of consciousness and I think Max Planck was also talking about God when he talked of an intelligence behind it all. God created the heavens and the earth. What we do know is that matter is emergent of consciousness, so Spirituality has it backwards.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

It's this Universal Source (God/Creator) Consciouss? Is it a pool of consciousness? Or is our Creator unconscious and just a mass of energy?

You're talking about quantum entanglement? By the way, according to Hameroff and Penrose your noggin is quantum-capable so there are possible parallels between Gnosticism and quantum theory. Cool, eh?

Originally Posted by andrewg3

Does life create the Universe or does the Universe create life?

Chicken and egg if you have linear time. If time doesn't exist then everything is happening all at once anyway, and sometimes cause can precede effect. If you're talking about time as a dimension then all of time is happening all the time, and all of time affects all of time all of the time so we're talking about causality loops. And having our brains scrambled. If matter is emergent of consciousness then consciousness came first, as in we came from Spirit or words of that ilk. Then again it also depends on your definition of 'Universe', but then Universe, God, All That Is, quantum field of probability.... are all the same things anyway.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by JohnHermes

If we perceive God as causeless, its reason to exist is "no reason". Paradox

Nice. That we find things impossible, we say they are.

[andrewg3]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

No prize for you then, try harder next time.

Cool stuff, thank you,I did not know about this. I appreciate that you posted the source.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Well kinda... Fear is a rather wonderful motivator and if it was your reality that your Soul was going to burn in eternal hellfire and damnation for eternity, you'd be a Godly person. The same as Spirituality means you don't suffer the hellfire and damnation of those low vibrations and ignorance.

True

Originally Posted by Greenslade

God has a history that goes back to Sumerian times but that's largely ignored in the discussion about God. No point in letting history get in the way when it comes to a good chinwag about God. And don't forget the control mechanism that kept the post-Constantine Christians under the thumb.

Yes I was trying to say that God might have appeared since stone-age.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

God made man, man made religion and religion made God. And God looks like a man because God has no image.

Is this God omniscient and omnipresent?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Or ego. Animals have a far greater capacity for Love and for Loving unconditionally than humans do, but few want to know that. Humans are supposedly superior because of intellect.

True, but I was not talking about superiority just by intellect, we have to define what we mean by superiority. If I put any human on this Planet to race a cheetah, I am sure they won't outrun the Cheetah. Also, since childhood I was wondered how ants with such a tiny brain are yet so coordinated and intelligent (that's my opinion)

Originally Posted by Greenslade

We already are, what hasn't been thought abut it what are the reasons we don't think we are, or better yet what are the reasons we don't define ourselves as such?

True

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Matter is emergent of consciousness and I think Max Planck was also talking about God when he talked of an intelligence behind it all. God created the heavens and the earth. What we do know is that matter is emergent of consciousness, so Spirituality has it backwards.

True as well.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're talking about quantum entanglement? By the way, according to Hameroff and Penrose your noggin is quantum-capable so there are possible parallels between Gnosticism and quantum theory. Cool, eh?

Yep, I heard of this.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Chicken and egg if you have linear time. If time doesn't exist then everything is happening all at once anyway, and sometimes cause can precede effect. If you're talking about time as a dimension then all of time is happening all the time, and all of time affects all of time all of the time so we're talking about causality loops. And having our brains scrambled. If matter is emergent of consciousness then consciousness came first, as in we came from Spirit or words of that ilk. Then again it also depends on your definition of 'Universe', but then Universe, God, All That Is, quantum field of probability.... are all the same things anyway.

True as well, it might all happen at once, right now Einstein might die, we as humans might perceive time going linearly in one direction. Whereas there might be an infinite number of parallel Universes each with its own fate (Einstein still alive in a parallel Universe, double slit experiment)

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

OK, try this. Very simply, your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. When you define what God is, that is how God exists in your reality, you are creating what God is to you. Alan Watts also said that if you know what God is you don't know what God is, because as soon as you say "God is...." you're talking about your definitions. By extension you're talking about what God is not. God is the omnipotent and omniscient Skydaddy which you are not.

Yes, this has been mentioned before. And there's more in that which has been imparted to us. As not exclusionary it applies to everyone. Shifting the perspective really doesn't change the question. Opposite arguments are from what I can see the same argument because by extension we have the problem, talking about what it is not to someone else by extension. Why even say God is this or that, just give that up.

What if you're not talking about God but you are talking about your Self???? If you are God you are God, but you can play at being not God. If everyone is Spiritual, what are those that say they are Spiritual and others are not Spiritual doing? And for the most revealing question of all, what are their reasons?

Yes, maybe. Know thyself. Don't think it possible not to know but maybe. Let me give a for instance and a subject that touches upon these definition aspects. It's said God is Love. Who is saying this. Both God and I say this. If God did not say this I would. The perception is more then knowledge based and include experience and observation I say independently of God. Element of choice seeing. Self as said may also be a dimensional entanglement (non local that appears local) mentioned in the thread. As to why the body sees itself not as it is, is simple enough. Personally in regard to act I believe we know why we do things (in the heart center) if that was brought up. Intriguing question. Can one have their own opinion, can you be you.

Where did your post come from? As I've said before, your reality comes from your definitions and they are your definitions because you created them. They'll be influenced by so many factors, and history being one of them because you'll read about it and have a relationship with the information. Your personality also shapes your reality, as does your genetics by way of how your brain is hardwired and how it processes Spiritual information. Or not. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert will also make a difference to your Spirituality.

Yeah, me or God. I have to ask where dose any post come from. Shifting the perspective doesn't change the question. It remains the same question. I imagine this post comes from the place all writings might.

What's also not known and almost always ignored is that God has a history before Abraham - and you've said already you don't have much truck with Abrahamic discussions but they're also a part of the mentality that has produced the beliefs in God.

Even go back further. Much in history is lost. Imo there was a history before that history no less important. Can one even imagine having the first thought about God, what that was like. It was totally new. No such thing as a first thought any more.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey Moonglow

I was wondering about you and hoping you weren't flash-frozen to the sidewalk as though you'd been trapped in some apocalyptic movie.

The biggest problem, Moonglow, is that science doesn't meet Spirituality. While science is willing to stretch out a hand to Spirituality, Spirituality keeps its hand close to its chest and ignores the rest. So, here's a little secret for you that Spirituality ignores - matter is emergent of consciousness, so the Bible got it right in its own linguistic context. Hurrah for the good guys, except that Spirituality won't embrace that. Sad.

Your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. When you say "God is..." you define how God exists in your reality, you don't define God himself. When you define what God ism, by extension you define what God is not. Usually that's you because humans aren't omnipotent not omniscient, and they tend not to pray to themselves when that's the sensible thing to do.

So you ask "How is it perceived?" but I would ask "What is being perceived?" If there's no clarity as to what we're actually talking about then is anything after that going to make any sense? This is where the discussion of God falls down, while so many are waxing so Spiritual few have taken the time to really understand what they're talking about. The discussion about God is the discussion about ignorance on so many levels.

Science has the answer, not Spirituality nor religion; matter is emergent of consciousness. Matter comes into being because the consciousness of the observer affects the double-slit experiment, so the Bible had it right when it said 'God' created the physical universe. God exists because people believe God exists. Every word that's been said about God is really about the human mind trying to make sense of what can't be grasped by the human mind, but the human ego needs to express it anyway.

What we term as God becomes the personification of all of consciousness, because the human mind just isn't capable of grasping what consciousness is never mind all of it that exists. What we term as God is the personification of all of reality.

The recurring themes about what God is or isn't comes down to mentality and has nothing to do with God. People today believe in God for the very same reasons people believed in God even in pre-Christian times. People pray to God and not Mars to be successful in battle, others pray to God and not Dionysus so that their wine harvest will be a good one. So yes, the names have changed but people are still just people.


If it's all God's creation then what does that say when people separate religion/Spirituality and science? Does the Hermetic principle of "As Above, So Below. So Below, As Above" not mean anything? Isn't science not about coming to an understanding of what God created?


Why do people simply ignore so much of God's works, so much of 'All That Is' then talk about it with so much conviction? I couldn't do that and look at myself in the mirror.

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck

Was he talking about God? Einstein was a believer in God and Tesla was known to be very Spiritual, and so many others past and present were/are the same. At one time religion and science were one and the same, but they 'fell out' and have never talked to each other since. Spirituality is anything you want it to be, God is anything you want him to be, beliefs are anything you want them to be. Reason, logic and truth are all relative to one's own agenda. On the other hand, science is a long process of coming up with facts and there is really no room for beliefs as facts. Yes there are theories but at least scientists are honest enough to say they are theories. In a scientific process the belief in karma would be ridiculed, yet in Spirituality it's a Universal Law that the bad guys will get theirs, even after subsequent reincarnations.

In Gestalt Reality the sum of the parts is not greater than the whole, the sum of the parts is a being unto its own right. So you have a physical body that facilitates your experiences within this plane of existence. You have a brain (allegedly) and a mind that processes sensory inputs from your experience and information that you read/hear, you have so many aspects that make up the being that is 'you' - the one that is Spiritual, the one that goes to work every day...... Your physical body, your consciousness..... so many aspects that are Gestalts or parts of the 'whole you'. If we are 'parts' of God?

The seeker is always that which is sought, Moonglow.

Greetings Greenslade,

Well thawing out a bit here. Been hibernating a little, outside of going to work.
It's winter after all, but still gets a bit brutal. Thank you for the kind thoughts.
Makes me wonder if this is going to be the norm. Getting too old for it

There seem a lot of finger pointing goes on. If things go well, praise be God, if not God is a jerk.(said lightly).

It seems expectations are set up for it to be the way thought, taught, and bought into being. As you allude to, it does appear much is of ones own making.

I don't know for sure. How can that which is beyond reason, beyond thinking, and beyond the mind to grasp be understood if not atleast attempted to discuss and described.

Some speak of direct experience. Yet, even these at times clash. For how can one be sure or know if one has not experienced it? Yet, five people may have the same experience and get five different stories/descriptions about it.

Seems it does involve the brain box to interpret and relate things to living in this physical realm. All is not even known about this physical realm and here some are attempting to explain what is beyond it?

Yes, atleast admit it is something to consider or suggested but not it in its entirety. 'Cause some things just need to be experienced to understand and/or grasp.

Not all scientists know for sure. Not all spiritual people claim to know either. You do get arrogance and ego games and such in any field of exploration. "Right is the best direction, no left is". "Let's call it...., but what is....?".

It does seem to get filtered through the mind to create some sort of connection and make sense at present. The thing is life is not stagnant, so what is at present may change or shift in perspective. Either notice this, go with it or blow it off and attempt to keep it the same.

There does seem to be some sort of intellegence behind creation, but is it seperated from the process/act? Or intertwined with in the machinics of what manifests.

Came across awhile back "to think is to create". This to me implies as one thinks it to be, one creates it to be. Follows a bit in line with what you present in the sense of creating our own realities. Maybe on a individual level, but in the grand scale is it thought about.

Does a dog question itself being a dog? What drives humans to question who we are? Maybe encoded with in our genes. Maybe something passed down and won't settle until the riddle is solved.

Some don't ponder so much on it. Hey ain't gonna pay the rent and besides got to get through this,.at the moment. Still may hold hope that it is not all for nothing.

I am of creation, a being with in the process. Possessing the ability to create with that which is given or has taken form to be me. I am not a bird to fly, or a fish to live in water, or anything else at present but me. What am I getting at?

Creation is the whole show and am but an actor upon its stage. So when saying of God, mean not the whole whatever it may be, but an extension of/within life unfolding and continuing.

But, life does not just involve me, nor is it all about me. May think so at times in order to get through this current life, but much more goes on then I may ever be aware of or know. The continuance of that which has, is, and will be set forth. This to me alludes to presence beyond what is thought to be and just being.

Spirituality in some circles seem more concerned with where we "should" be going, instead of where we are. In other circles saying be present and notice where you are. Science in a way same thing. Which can create more change?
Yes, and those humble enough recognize that each are just suggestions and possibilities, but not the whole picture.

Yes, it is right here, right now. What the universe has is within us.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

Cool stuff, thank you,I did not know about this. I appreciate that you posted the source.

You're very welcome, now you're almost as clever as I am. But not quite.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

Yes I was trying to say that God might have appeared since stone-age.

There are a number of theories on this, one being the Stoned Ape who had no qualms about munching on magic mushrooms or similar. Another is the idea that caveman was philosophising one day about how the food he hunted and the shelter he lived in was put there by some unseen force. What is known though is that there is a God gene, if you care to Google it.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

Is this God omniscient and omnipresent?

Allegedly, but he needs religious leaders to communicate with the ordinary people.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

True, but I was not talking about superiority just by intellect, we have to define what we mean by superiority. If I put any human on this Planet to race a cheetah, I am sure they won't outrun the Cheetah. Also, since childhood I was wondered how ants with such a tiny brain are yet so coordinated and intelligent (that's my opinion)

We have to ask what reasons do we think we are superior, and in what way - and not just intellectually neither. Superior, inferior and hierarchical structures are of the ego, not Spirit.

Originally Posted by andrewg3

Yep, I heard of this.

So who needs a Spiritual forum for information when you're quantum-entangled with the Skydaddy?

Originally Posted by andrewg3

True as well, it might all happen at once, right now Einstein might die, we as humans might perceive time going linearly in one direction. Whereas there might be an infinite number of parallel Universes each with its own fate (Einstein still alive in a parallel Universe, double slit experiment)

Quantum theory doesn't know if Schroedeger's Cat is alive or dead until the box is opened and the state of the cat is observed. Does the same thing go for God? Is he only real because our consciousness has 'observed' his existence? And if so, does that make us the creators of God?

[JustBe]

This thread reminds me of this and also why we create everything as we do..

The child
is made of one hundred.
The child has
a hundred languages
a hundred hands
a hundred thoughts
a hundred ways of thinking
of playing, of speaking.
A hundred always a hundred…
from the poem “No way. The hundred is there.”
by Loris Malaguzzi. Translated by Lella Gandini