What I believe full enlightenment is

[Questions]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Da
I agree that none in this realm have that luxury (without the use of heavy intoxicants or other ways of numbing out or disengaging). AND I would further say, for all incarnated beings, that is broadly to our good. Our highest good. Gam zu l'tova.

And...thus, IMO...the state of being fully centred and present is a more right-aligned (truer to self) state, period, for most of us, most of the time.

That is, I don't agree that permabliss -- even if possible -- is an ideal or "higher" state if it requires a disengagement with all that is, with self and others. If it requires a flattening or a silencing of our thoughts and feelings. Equanimity is broadly desirable and necessary but NOT at the expense of killing our compassion and our lovingkindness, nor at the expense of silencing our unique consciousness and contributions. It is a critical balance and everything depends on it.

I agree that Etty Hillesum didn't have permanent bliss devoid of engagement, thought, or feeling. AND Fank God (keeping it clean ) for that. I would say that IMO what she had was a higher state of being, a higher state of humanity. Which allowed her to be fully present to her own suffering and the suffering of others. IMO humanity do not need permabliss at the expense of our humanity...we need ourselves and one another. We need to be present and engaged with ourselves and one another. We too are divine in all we are. And that means there is a real and eternal truth in all we are and think and feel and experience, despite our transitory form. Not one iota will or should be lost. Not one

That is the truth I know. Disclaimer...I was always the insurrectionist and like you, no one will convince me that this is just a waystation to permabliss. All that we are is always here and now, and everything matters. Our joy, our suffering, all of it.

Now what say ye? (BTW who are these ppl touting totalitarian permabliss anyway? Sounds oppressive to me...and boring ;) per my disclaimer...)

Peace & blessings
7L

It seems like I hit a nerve when I spoke of silencing thoughts and emotions but it also seems like you didn't want to read the whole sentence as it says thoughts and emotions silenced and not arising on THEIR OWN. When you see that you'll start seeing the way.

If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.

Bodhidharma

[sentient]

Something permanent, which could be likened to All Pervasive Space – doesn’t negate or avoid impermanence – it accommodates and highlights it.

*

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by God-Like

For sure it can seem like the ultimate sacrifice when the mind-body experience in a way takes a back seat, the same can be said for those that go into isolation and spend most of their life in union with God rather than integrate within society, see the world, do everything that can be done and meet a million people lol .

It’s only one lifetime out of 1000’s so it’s not the sum of all parts, but this type of experience will come about for all one day. There has to be this type of life in order to realise what one does .. It is the ultimate self relationship with God or what you are .

When my mum went through her episode I was a kid growing up with her uniqueness so to speak, I would come home from school and she would be standing on her head. My liver and cabbage dinner would be on the table, it was just normal to me but didn’t comprehend what sort of journey my mum was entertaining until my sufferings of life started in my early 20’s.

In regards to your question regarding if I have ever felt the Love of the divine, then yes I have if realising Self is comparable ..

This being said and done is the reason that I don’t put any guru type in a position above my own, I don’t worship anyone nor am I a devotee to anyone .. I have no need to follow anyone and believe what they say to be true, based upon words alone . They don’t do anything for me ..

I am no-one's groupie :)


x daz x

Liver and cabbage...YUK! You poor thing.


I am wondering....because of what your mother went through in regards to her own journey on the spiritual path, is it possible that you harbour some deep resentment towards it or towards certain practices? It does sort of sound like you are bitter over it for some reason.

Yes, I fully believe that we are talking about two different experiences here now.

It seems like your experience is more at the level of the head, of total rational awareness, of complete mental satisfaction or else you wouldn't call those who worship God or Guru "groupies". For you see dear daz, it is possible to be totally alone when one is locked in their room OR out in the world in a large group of people...however, one is never truly alone because "ceiling cat" always watches everything you do.

If you only knew all of the unseen spirits right now, occupying the same space you do... watching you bathe, toilet, pleasure yourself..a few years ago, I had just finished doing the latter, when I did an EVP session...the results of that session was particularly embarrassing, but I digress...where was I?

The enlightenment which is experienced within the head must also be tempered with that of the heart and the mind needs to be brought down into that space, but doing so means to completely lose the ego..the "big SELF" or the "little self"...whenever the word "self" is used, I equate that equally with the ego.

I am going ask you a personal question, daz..have you ever been in love? Not the love of a family or friends, but passionate, mind numbing love? doing stupid things love? walking on clouds love? giddy schoolboy love?

If you have, take that experience...now double it..triple it... quadruple it..times it by a thousand...

It is really difficult to describe this...as I also believe it is difficult to describe or discuss or talk about enlightenment and why "Enlightened people" would do such and such...I mean, why does anybody do such and such?

I used to look for motives behind behaviours until I realized I was running a fool's errand...until I realized I was just parroting my own mother's behavior based upon ideals that were around during the middle of the last century..

"people who don't know why they are doing what they do are insane...you should watch out for all those 'insane folk' because they are dangerous, so you should always make it your business to find out why another does what it is they do".

Until I realise that doing this makes you one of the "insane folk" your mother warned you about.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Questions

It seems like I hit a nerve when I spoke of silencing thoughts and emotions but it also seems like you didn't want to read the whole sentence as it says thoughts and emotions silenced and not arising on THEIR OWN. When you see that you'll start seeing the way.

If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.

Bodhidharma

Good insights.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by God-Like

The thing about this is that one needs to be able to know of sufferings in order to help others. This is the absolute necessity for the healer when healing other's.

Most prolific healers need the experience of suffering in order to relate to other's.

Most channel's / mediums likewise require the sufferings and the losses in order to relate to other's that have suffered and lost loved one's ..

This isn't a reflection of permanent bliss. This is all I am highlighting ..

Permanent bliss in my eyes is the crossed legged peep without a care or a worry in this world .



I don't know of anyone that has that luxury .. not even the dudette that you mentioned had that luxury ..


x daz x

In my experience of understanding that which I don’t experience, I like to keep an open mind. How you perceive permanent bliss is an idea based upon the nature of some practices. We are evolving into becoming these experiences and states of being as a lived experience. It’s not going to be uncommon in the near future where the true state leads the lived experience. It’s showing it’s potential through many streams of awakening and individuals.

So perhaps if you open your mind daz, you make space for more potential.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Let's just say that Jesus was enlightened - for the sake of argument only.

What made him flip the tables of the money changers inside the temple in a fit of rage?

He may have fully realised "ah, by doing this, they are gonna nail me to a cross and I will have the excuse I need to fulfil my destiny here".

What enlightenment means to me? Well, not that anything which I find to be personally relevant would apply in any way, shape or form to what enlightenment actually IS..

The ability to see the "bigger picture" totally irrespective of what is going on in our little corner of the universe...not only to realise the Self, but to realise that which is beyond any notion or perception of a Self..but also happens to be fully inclusive of it.

As far as I can tell, from what I can understand through my limited understanding, Enlightened people still have emotions.. they still feel anger, love, frustration sorrow etc, but they experience it FULLY in all of about five seconds, process it in the shortest time possible and then drop it and move on.

It isn't the emotion itself, it is the attachment to it, the dwelling on it and basing future actions upon it.

As usual, our shape shifting Goddess nails it.

SD, do you know it’s possible for someone to be almost wholly enlightened e.g. an emotion such as xyz arises, is soft as a feather (even less), is seem, gone. It’s almost Nibbana, the peace is unthinkable, unexplainable, unimaginable.

Through non cultivation, ignorance and karma build up can someone lose such a “state”, if we can call it that?

Namaste,

JL

Originally Posted by God-Like

I have experienced many enlightening states

As some Tibetan teacher once said, if you ask me is this experience enlightenment, I can say clearly, no it is not.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I recall a story from Autobiography of a Yogi.

Swami Yogananda was sitting in meditation with his Guru Sri Yukteshwar.

Yogananda was just about to go into bliss, but he was being eaten alive by mosquitoes. They were distracting him from his meditation and a few were boring their hypodermic proboscis deep into his arm and he was resisting the urge to swat them..he thought that if he could just get rid of these pesky buggers, he would be able to continue his meditation undisturbed.

Now of course Sri Yukteshwar could read Yogananda like a book...even though his disciple remained silent. Certain siddhis allowed the Master to do just that.

Sri Yukteshwar broke his own meditation, turned to Yogananda and said:

"Go on then, what are you waiting for?"

Yogananda then spoke:

"Whatever do you mean, Master?"

Sri Yukteshwar replied:

"I know you want to swat those mosquitoes, so just go ahead and swat them..get it over with".

Upon hearing this from his master, Yogananda retorted:

"What about ahimsa? Non violence? You said that killing things was bad...it was wrong. I will be committing a sin by killing the mosquitoes.."

Yukteshwar said:

"My dear Mukunda..you have already committed the sin in your mind. You have already killed those mosquitoes. Ahimsa is to be applied not only in deed, but also in thought..so you may as well kill those mosquitoes now because it makes no difference anyway".

So, when one is in bliss, there IS no fly to swat.

I like this. My teacher had many such skills, he was beautiful, Shivani Devi.

Originally Posted by God-Like

Me too Muffin man .. although running has just said that the masters refer this to God intoxication ..

Well this IS what I am talking about in a roundabout way if we speak about that in relation to the Love of what you are .. but within that Love there is no room for any negative emotions to run simultaneously with that .

It makes no sense to me for there to be this permanent Love and whenever the thought arises to create pain towards another or entertain fear on some level that this Love is still permanently there. .


x daz x

You dont know what people are talking about because you are thinking about it conceptually. It’s like arguing with a fish that’s never left the water or a frog who has never left their pond.

You have to experience it through cultivation, sadhana.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Liver and cabbage...YUK! You poor thing.


I am wondering....because of what your mother went through in regards to her own journey on the spiritual path, is it possible that you harbour some deep resentment towards it or towards certain practices? It does sort of sound like you are bitter over it for some reason.

Yes, I fully believe that we are talking about two different experiences here now.

It seems like your experience is more at the level of the head, of total rational awareness, of complete mental satisfaction or else you wouldn't call those who worship God or Guru "groupies". For you see dear daz, it is possible to be totally alone when one is locked in their room OR out in the world in a large group of people...however, one is never truly alone because "ceiling cat" always watches everything you do.

If you only knew all of the unseen spirits right now, occupying the same space you do... watching you bathe, toilet, pleasure yourself..a few years ago, I had just finished doing the latter, when I did an EVP session...the results of that session was particularly embarrassing, but I digress...where was I?

The enlightenment which is experienced within the head must also be tempered with that of the heart and the mind needs to be brought down into that space, but doing so means to completely lose the ego..the "big SELF" or the "little self"...whenever the word "self" is used, I equate that equally with the ego.

I am going ask you a personal question, daz..have you ever been in love? Not the love of a family or friends, but passionate, mind numbing love? doing stupid things love? walking on clouds love? giddy schoolboy love?

If you have, take that experience...now double it..triple it... quadruple it..times it by a thousand...

It is really difficult to describe this...as I also believe it is difficult to describe or discuss or talk about enlightenment and why "Enlightened people" would do such and such...I mean, why does anybody do such and such?

I used to look for motives behind behaviours until I realized I was running a fool's errand...until I realized I was just parroting my own mother's behavior based upon ideals that were around during the middle of the last century..

"people who don't know why they are doing what they do are insane...you should watch out for all those 'insane folk' because they are dangerous, so you should always make it your business to find out why another does what it is they do".

Until I realise that doing this makes you one of the "insane folk" your mother warned you about.

Being one’s own groupie is a nice trick of the self too.

You make me laugh, and I really love your posts here recently SD.

Thank you.